Introduction to Opposing Bases (0:00 – 2:16)
The episode begins with a welcome message from Romeo Hotel, acknowledging that listeners are tuning into an older episode. He reassures them that while all episodes are available, it’s recommended to start with recent ones for more relevant discussions.
Following this, air traffic control (ATC) transmissions are played, including standard communication with pilots regarding altitude, approach clearances, and traffic advisories.
Romeo Hotel and Alpha Golf introduce themselves as air traffic controllers and rated pilots who are passionate about aviation. They clarify that their podcast is for entertainment and educational purposes, stating that they do not officially represent any aviation authority or employer. Instead, they aim to share their unique perspective on air traffic operations.
For this episode, the topics will include approach briefings, holding patterns, “Expect Further Clearance” (EFC) times, and fuel emergency communications. They also highlight listener feedback as a driving force for the show’s content.
Casual Banter and Weekly Updates (2:17 – 7:04)
The hosts engage in a lighthearted exchange about the podcast’s introduction, with Alpha Golf complimenting the improvements while Romeo Hotel remains critical of the evolving format. They acknowledge the importance of clarity for new listeners.
They then transition into a discussion about their weeks. Romeo Hotel describes a hectic work schedule, emphasizing challenging weather conditions requiring precision instrument landing system (ILS) approaches, including Category II operations in near-zero visibility. He explains “smigs” (a lower-budget alternative to ground radar) and details his training responsibilities, highlighting the success of a trainee handling complex approaches.
Alpha Golf shares his experience traveling out west, mentioning good weather initially before encountering snow. He recounts a visit to his family and describes simulator training sessions. His father had a chance to fly in the simulator, and he humorously recalls simulated landings on the White House lawn and RFK stadium. He also notes that he is now certified in a new software version (9.2.2) used in the simulator.
Listener Feedback: Runway Changes and Holding Patterns (7:06 – 13:31)
Captain Nick, a co-host of the Airline Pilot Guy podcast, provides feedback on two key topics: the impact of last-minute runway changes and the accuracy of EFC times in U.S. airspace.
He explains that in long-haul operations, runway changes at short notice significantly increase workload. Pilots must reprogram the Flight Management System (FMS), re-study the approach, recalculate landing distances, and update taxi routes, among other tasks. He argues that these changes can reduce safety margins, especially when unexpected.
Regarding holding patterns, Captain Nick notes that while U.S. air traffic flow management is generally efficient, the lack of accurate Expect Further Clearance times is a major concern for international pilots. He contrasts this with European airports like Heathrow, where EFC times are precise within minutes. In the U.S., however, pilots are often given long EFC times (e.g., 50-60 minutes) but are then cleared much sooner. This uncertainty makes fuel management difficult, especially for long-haul flights where diversions are complex due to customs, crew duty time, and refueling logistics.
Discussion on Runway Changes and ATC Training (13:33 – 14:46)
Romeo Hotel responds to Captain Nick’s feedback by acknowledging that pilots frequently express frustration over runway changes. He highlights new ATC training materials that provide a detailed look at how pilots handle these changes, including their impact on workload. These materials illustrate the adjustments pilots must make when switching runways mid-flight or during taxi.
Alpha Golf then offers a helicopter pilot’s perspective, explaining how a last-minute runway change affects workload in instrument meteorological conditions (IMC). He describes the process of locating the correct approach chart, verifying equipment legality, updating the flight plan, and reprogramming the flight management system. Depending on the circumstances, these changes can be time-consuming and demanding, further reinforcing Captain Nick’s concerns.
This segment of the episode provides an insightful discussion on ATC operations, pilot workload management, and the challenges posed by unexpected changes in flight plans. The dialogue is enriched by real-world examples from both hosts and listener feedback.
The Complexity of Last-Minute Approach Changes (14:46 – 15:44)
Alpha Golf continues discussing the workload involved in changing an approach at the last minute. If the updated procedure is not already stored in the aircraft’s flight management system, pilots must manually reconstruct the approach, a time-consuming and meticulous process. Once programmed, the approach must be verified and briefed, adding to the crew’s workload. Even in non-commercial aviation, these changes demand focus and coordination, demonstrating why last-minute changes create challenges for pilots.
Simulated Approach Briefing: ILS Runway 1 at DCA (15:44 – 18:17)
To illustrate how approach briefings work, Romeo Hotel and Alpha Golf conduct a simulated briefing for an ILS approach to Runway 1 at Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport (DCA). Alpha Golf, acting as the flying pilot, walks through the essential elements, including:
Localizer Frequency & Course: 109.9 MHz, approach course 006°
Elevation: Touchdown zone at 14 feet, airport elevation at 15 feet
Missed Approach Procedure: Climbing to 420 feet, then left turn to 2,100 feet via the DCA VOR 325 radial to an NDB hold
Tower Frequency: 119.1 MHz
Final Approach Fix & Minimums: 1,600 feet at final approach fix, with a decision height of 214 feet (200 AGL)
Romeo Hotel interjects to provide real-time weather updates, indicating 200-foot ceilings and three miles of visibility, meaning the approach lights will be active. Given these conditions, Alpha Golf confirms that they can descend to 114 feet above the touchdown zone if the runway environment is in sight.
Restricted Airspace Considerations (18:19 – 18:57)
Alpha Golf highlights an essential aspect of approaching DCA: avoiding restricted airspace. Prohibited Area P-56, located near the White House, requires a precise left turn at 420 feet to avoid violating airspace restrictions. Romeo Hotel jokes about the consequences of entering this area, emphasizing that it’s critical for crews to be fully aware of these constraints. The discussion underscores the complexity of flying into airports with airspace restrictions and why last-minute changes exacerbate pilot workload.
The Importance of Approach Briefings & Challenges of Last-Minute Runway Changes (18:57 – 22:59)
Following the briefing, Romeo Hotel reflects on the process, pointing out that while their example took only a few minutes, pilots often conduct these briefings under time constraints, sometimes as little as 10 to 15 miles from landing. If a last-minute runway change occurs, pilots must repeat the entire process for the new approach, including updating navigation settings, missed approach procedures, and airspace considerations.
This reinforces Captain Nick’s earlier point: late-stage runway changes impose a significant cognitive and procedural burden on pilots. Even though experienced crews can perform a re-briefing efficiently, no step in the process is trivial—everything must be done correctly to ensure safety.
Introduction to Holding Patterns & Expect Further Clearance (EFC) Times (22:59 – 26:03)
Shifting to Captain Nick’s second topic, Romeo Hotel explains the concept of holding patterns and Expect Further Clearance (EFC) times for those unfamiliar with them. Since aircraft cannot stop mid-air, when they cannot proceed to their destination, they are placed in holding patterns—essentially elongated racetrack loops.
An EFC time is when the aircraft can expect to leave the hold and continue to its destination. While the U.S. air traffic system is generally efficient in preventing holds through proactive ground management, holds are sometimes unavoidable.
Reasons for Holding at Airports (23:00 – 26:03)
Alpha Golf outlines common reasons why aircraft may be put into a hold, particularly at major airports:
Weather Deterioration: Poor conditions may require slowing down arrivals, increasing spacing between aircraft.
Runway Configuration Changes: If wind shifts force an airport to switch from one set of runways to another, incoming aircraft may need to hold while ATC reconfigures the approach flow.
Approach Type Changes: A shift from visual approaches (which allow for a higher arrival rate) to instrument approaches (which require greater separation) can reduce efficiency.
Emergencies: If an aircraft is disabled on the runway or an emergency arises, controllers must hold arriving flights until the situation is resolved.
Romeo Hotel adds that major airports typically plan these changes hours in advance to minimize disruptions, but unexpected changes can still cause significant delays.
Why EFC Times Seem Wildly Inaccurate (26:03 – 29:07)
Romeo Hotel addresses Captain Nick’s concern about inaccurate EFC times. He explains that controllers provide conservative estimates because they genuinely do not know how long a hold will last. When air traffic congestion suddenly increases (e.g., due to unexpected weather), controllers are instructed to extend separation between aircraft, sometimes doubling the spacing.
For example, if an airport’s normal arrival spacing is 10 miles between aircraft, ATC may be instructed to increase it to 20 miles. However, the first aircraft in the line has already been sequenced at the original spacing, meaning the controllers must now find a way to delay some of them—often by putting them in a hold.
From a pilot’s perspective, hearing an EFC time of 50 minutes but being released after just one lap in the hold can seem like a major miscalculation. However, Romeo Hotel clarifies that this approach is deliberate: controllers err on the side of caution to avoid misleading pilots into thinking a hold will be brief, only to extend it later. It’s not that controllers are guessing, but rather that they must plan conservatively in the absence of precise timing data.
This conservative approach is meant to help pilots plan for the worst-case scenario, ensuring they have enough fuel to divert if needed. While it may seem excessive, it prevents pilots from being caught off guard by an unexpectedly long hold.
Key Takeaways from This Segment
Approach briefings are an essential part of flight operations, ensuring pilots are fully prepared before landing.
Last-minute runway or approach changes dramatically increase pilot workload, requiring them to reprogram navigation systems and re-brief procedures while under time pressure.
Holding patterns and EFC times are used when air traffic controllers cannot clear aircraft to proceed to their destinations immediately.
EFC times are intentionally conservative, as controllers cannot always predict how long a delay will last. The goal is to prevent pilots from making fuel decisions based on overly optimistic estimates.
This portion of the episode continues to highlight the complexities of air traffic management and the challenges pilots face when dealing with last-minute changes and holding procedures.
Managing Fuel in Holding Situations (29:08 – 32:15)
Alpha Golf acknowledges that conservative EFC times make sense from an operational standpoint. He emphasizes that providing an overly optimistic clearance time could lead pilots to miscalculate their fuel needs, potentially placing them in a precarious situation.
Romeo Hotel describes the standard response upon receiving an extended EFC time. The first step is typically to reduce speed, with ATC often allowing “speed your discretion” to conserve fuel. Slowing down is a crucial strategy because higher speeds translate to higher fuel consumption.
Meanwhile, pilots communicate with their dispatchers, who have real-time access to additional information, including weather conditions, runway changes, and emergency situations. Dispatchers also calculate bingo fuel—the fuel amount at which a diversion is mandatory. If an aircraft cannot continue to hold beyond a certain point without jeopardizing fuel reserves, the crew must coordinate with ATC for a diversion.
Romeo Hotel recalls a specific instance where his aircraft was en route to JFK but had to divert to Allentown, Pennsylvania, after determining they lacked the fuel for further holding and a possible missed approach at JFK. By promptly communicating their situation to ATC, the crew was able to ensure a safe and orderly diversion.
Ground-Based Flow Management: Holding Departures for Arrival Gaps (32:16 – 34:16)
Alpha Golf explains how air traffic control manages departures bound for major hub airports. When a flight is preparing for departure, controllers coordinate with the Traffic Management Unit (TMU) to obtain a release time.
For example, if Delta 1275 is departing for Atlanta, Triad Tower calls TMU to secure a departure slot. TMU then provides a release time (e.g., “released in 35 minutes, void in 38 minutes”), and it is up to the tower to ensure the aircraft departs within that window. This system ensures that the aircraft has a designated “hole” in the arrival sequence at the destination airport, preventing unnecessary airborne holding.
The Precision of Traffic Flow Management (34:16 – 37:58)
Romeo Hotel describes the fascinating orchestration of air traffic, especially for high-traffic areas like the Northeastern U.S. Departure slots are planned based on available arrival slots, ensuring that aircraft seamlessly integrate into the en-route stream.
In some cases, the “gap” for a departing aircraft is visible on radar. At airports within close proximity to major hubs, controllers can physically observe arrival streams with 10-mile spacing and see a 15-20 mile gap where a departing aircraft will fit. However, for airports farther from their destination (e.g., flights from the Southeast U.S. to New York City), the sequencing is done further out on jet routes, requiring more sophisticated planning.
This structured approach minimizes airborne holding, supporting Captain Nick’s observation that the U.S. system is remarkably efficient at reducing the need for holds. However, when unexpected delays do occur, the system still has flexibility—though at the cost of increased EFC times, which can seem overly conservative to pilots.
Romeo Hotel reinforces that, while the system is not perfect, controllers and traffic managers strive to mitigate the need for unplanned airborne holds through careful sequencing and strategic release times.
The Importance of Early Fuel Communication (37:59 – 38:06)
Romeo Hotel and Captain Nick discuss the importance of early communication regarding fuel concerns. If a crew knows they have limited holding time, informing ATC as soon as possible helps controllers better integrate that aircraft into the arrival sequence. While this does not necessarily grant priority handling, it ensures that controllers have an accurate picture of the aircraft’s situation, allowing them to make informed decisions about sequencing.
Declaring “Minimum Fuel” and Emergency Fuel Situations (38:07 – 41:07)
Alpha Golf introduces the concept of minimum fuel, an official declaration that indicates an aircraft’s fuel reserves have reached a point where it can accept little or no delay upon arrival.
He shares a personal experience from a combat deployment in Iraq, where he and his crew were transporting a sling load across 150 miles of desert. Midway through the flight, they encountered stronger-than-forecasted headwinds, significantly increasing fuel burn. Since they were past the point of no return, they had to either increase speed (which also increased fuel consumption but ensured reaching their destination) or risk running out of fuel in a hostile environment.
They ultimately pushed the helicopter to its performance limits, flying at speeds well beyond the usual range for a sling load operation. The fuel reserve lights illuminated when they were just 15-20 miles from their destination, prompting them to declare an emergency.
Upon arrival, complications arose regarding where to drop the sling load, leading to an urgent radio exchange with tower controllers. The situation was resolved with the help of Apache helicopters on the ground, which turned on all their lights to guide them to the refueling area.
Declaring Minimum Fuel in Civilian Airspace: A New York Approach Incident (41:08 – 43:19)
Romeo Hotel recounts a minimum fuel declaration on a commercial flight to JFK. The situation was triggered by an en route altitude restriction due to equipment failure, leading to increased fuel burn and an unanticipated fuel shortage.
Approaching New York, the pilots realized they lacked sufficient fuel for extended holding and decided to declare minimum fuel to ensure a more direct arrival. The response from ATC was immediate and serious, with New York controllers asking, “Say fuel on board and time to starvation?”—a stark question designed to assess the urgency of the situation.
The captain, caught off guard, estimated 52 minutes of remaining fuel, which prompted ATC to immediately declare an emergency on the aircraft’s behalf. ATC then instructed them to descend and proceed to a more direct approach, bypassing the extended downwind leg that is typical for JFK arrivals.
This exchange highlights the importance of clear, direct communication between pilots and controllers when fuel concerns arise. Even in VFR conditions, where multiple diversion options exist, fuel reserves are carefully managed, and ATC takes such declarations seriously.
Key Takeaways from This Segment
Fuel conservation during holding: Pilots immediately slow down and coordinate with dispatchers to determine viable alternatives if holding extends beyond fuel limits.
Ground-based traffic management: Major hub airports use departure sequencing to prevent excessive airborne holding.
Communication is critical: Pilots should notify ATC as early as possible if fuel limitations will prevent them from accepting further delays.
Declaring “minimum fuel”: This signals that an aircraft cannot accept further delays, but it is not yet an emergency.
Emergency fuel situations: If fuel reserves are critically low, ATC will declare an emergency to prioritize the aircraft’s arrival.
This portion of the episode underscores the delicate balance between fuel planning, air traffic sequencing, and real-time decision-making, with real-world examples from both combat and commercial aviation.
Declaring Minimum Fuel: Immediate ATC Response (43:19 – 44:56)
Romeo Hotel continues recounting his minimum fuel declaration over New York airspace. After communicating the issue to ATC, the response was swift. Controllers immediately slowed down the arrival stream of aircraft and assigned his flight a direct downwind approach with minimal delay. In effect, they treated the situation as an emergency without him needing to escalate beyond the minimum fuel declaration.
He notes that some pilots hesitate to declare minimum fuel out of fear of repercussions. However, in his case, there were no negative consequences—just some paperwork. He emphasizes that pilots should not be afraid to declare minimum fuel when necessary. The system is designed to accommodate such situations, and ATC will prioritize getting the aircraft on the ground safely.
Alpha Golf humorously contrasts this with his experience, where he did get in trouble for dropping a sling load in the middle of an airfield during a fuel emergency in a combat zone. While he avoided serious consequences, he recalls being chewed out the next day for how the load was handled.
Wrapping Up the Holding and Fuel Discussion (44:56 – 45:32)
Romeo Hotel thanks Captain Nick for bringing up the topic of holding times and EFC accuracy, acknowledging that they took the discussion much further than expected. He invites Captain Nick to follow up if they missed anything, though he jokingly states that they have now thoroughly exhausted the topic.
With that, the hosts transition into listener feedback, beginning with a message from Joe, the Airbus guy.
Listener Feedback: Airbus Flight Management & Automation (45:33 – 48:28)
Joe, an Airbus pilot, shares his thoughts on flight automation and situational awareness. He appreciates the shift to electronic flight management systems (FMS) and iPads, which have reduced the physical workload in the cockpit—replacing the traditional 35-pound flight bag with a more convenient digital system.
Joe explains a key Airbus system function—the Flight Mode Annunciator (FMA)—which displays what the aircraft is currently doing and what it is programmed to do next. He emphasizes the importance of monitoring the FMA closely to avoid surprises when transitioning between different autopilot modes, particularly when arming an ILS approach.
He also highlights an advantage of the Airbus FMS: the ability to pre-program two separate arrivals and approaches. This allows pilots to prepare for last-minute runway or STAR (Standard Terminal Arrival Route) changes in advance, reducing workload and potential errors. Romeo Hotel and Alpha Golf note that this feature is not available on all aircraft, making it a particularly useful tool for Airbus pilots.
Joe further discusses Traffic Alert (TA) and Resolution Advisory (RA) systems, offering a technique to minimize unnecessary alerts. By reducing vertical speed when an alert is triggered, pilots can avoid unnecessary conflict warnings without causing significant deviation from their clearance. However, he warns that using vertical speed mode requires caution, as it removes the aircraft from its managed climb/descent mode, meaning pilots must actively monitor altitude constraints.
Romeo Hotel and Alpha Golf both agree that this is a valuable technique, provided pilots remain aware of altitude restrictions.
Listener Feedback: Appreciation from Gotham City (48:28 – 50:45)
David Abbey, a listener from Gotham City, calls in with positive feedback. He discovered Opposing Bases through the Airline Pilot Guy podcast and has since listened to all five episodes.
David praises the show for offering a balanced, realistic perspective on air traffic control (ATC) without sensationalism. He appreciates that Romeo Hotel and Alpha Golf clearly distinguish between official procedures and personal opinions, offering valuable insights without claiming their perspective is the only correct one.
He also enjoys how the hosts incorporate real-world examples from their own airspace, allowing listeners to cross-reference maps and airport charts for better understanding. David promises to provide more feedback in the future and looks forward to more episodes.
Romeo Hotel thanks DA for his message and humorously gives him the nickname “DA” for future correspondence.
Listener Feedback: VFR Flight Plans & ForeFlight Routing (50:46 – 54:53)
Jason, a Chinook pilot and GA aviator, writes in with a comment and a question.
ForeFlight Routing Feature: Jason highlights a useful function in ForeFlight, where pilots can enter an intended flight plan and check the “Routes” tab. This tab displays recently approved clearances from ATC, helping pilots anticipate what they might receive.
Romeo Hotel and Alpha Golf discuss how this feature likely pulls routing data from filed flight plans at departure airports rather than capturing in-flight amendments made by ATC. They agree that it’s a valuable tool for pilots to verify expected routes before departure.
VFR Flight Plan Transmission to ATC: Jason asks whether filing and activating a VFR flight plan through Flight Service sends the information to ATC.
The hosts clarify that ATC does not automatically receive VFR flight plan details unless the pilot specifically requests flight following. The only information controllers have is what the pilot provides verbally over the radio.
Romeo Hotel adds an interesting point: Some airports do receive printed strips from filed (but not activated) VFR flight plans, which prepares controllers in advance for an expected departure. However, at Triad Tower, this is not the case—they only learn about a VFR departure when a pilot calls for taxi.
The conversation highlights a common misunderstanding among pilots—filing a VFR flight plan does not automatically inform ATC unless it is opened and flight following is requested.
Closing Thoughts & Chinook Pilot Community (54:54 – 56:27)
Jason signs off by mentioning that he is a fellow CH-47 Chinook pilot, joining two other Chinook pilots who have written into the show. Alpha Golf humorously estimates that this represents 62% of the total Chinook pilot population.
Jason also mentions AG’s recent 9.2.2 training and shares his experience using the updated system in CH-47 operations. The hosts appreciate his perspective, wrapping up the segment with some lighthearted banter about the Chinook pilot community.
Key Takeaways from This Segment
Declaring Minimum Fuel:
ATC treats minimum fuel declarations seriously and prioritizes affected aircraft accordingly.
Pilots should not hesitate to declare minimum fuel if necessary—there is no penalty for following safety procedures.
Automation in Modern Aircraft:
The Airbus Flight Mode Annunciator (FMA) provides pilots with clear indications of what the aircraft is doing.
Airbus aircraft can pre-program multiple approaches, reducing workload during last-minute runway changes.
Using ForeFlight for Route Planning:
The “Routes” tab in ForeFlight shows recently approved ATC clearances, helping pilots anticipate expected routings.
This feature is particularly useful for IFR operations but may not account for in-flight amendments.
VFR Flight Plans and ATC:
Filing a VFR flight plan through Flight Service does not automatically notify ATC.
ATC is only aware of a VFR aircraft if the pilot requests flight following.
Listener Engagement & Community Growth:
The Opposing Bases podcast continues to attract pilots from different backgrounds, including airline, GA, and military aviators.
This segment combines critical flight operations discussions with engaging listener interaction, reinforcing Opposing Bases as a valuable resource for pilots and aviation enthusiasts alike.
Final Thoughts on Fuel Management and Operational Discipline (56:28 – 57:15)
Alpha Golf and Romeo Hotel wrap up their discussion on fuel emergencies with a lighthearted exchange about Chinook pilots, commonly referred to as “hookers” in aviation slang. They humorously distinguish between the freight-hauling Chinook pilots on the East Coast and their counterparts in Washington.
Listener Feedback: CFI Mike on Practice Approaches (57:15 – 57:19)
CFI Mike responds to a discussion from Episode 7 regarding practice approaches. He appreciates the feedback he received and confirms that he will integrate the long final vectoring technique into his CFI toolkit for appropriate training scenarios.
Romeo Hotel acknowledges Mike’s continued engagement with the show and highlights the value of instructors actively contributing their experiences. Since CFIs work directly with students in the National Airspace System (NAS), they provide real-world insights that benefit pilots and controllers alike.
Listener Feedback: The Issue of Dropping “K” in Airport Identifiers (57:19 – 1:02:12)
Ryan writes in with concerns about the removal of the “K” prefix in ICAO airport identifiers, which can lead to confusion between airport codes and navigation aids (NAVAIDs).
For instance, an airport might have the identifier KXXX, while a NAVAID in the same area could be listed as XXX. If ATC issues a clearance to XXX, pilots unfamiliar with this distinction might mistakenly navigate to a NAVAID instead of an airport. Ryan notes that this has led to complications in areas with spotty radio reception and congested frequencies, making it difficult to clarify ambiguous instructions.
Romeo Hotel and Alpha Golf clarify that their previous discussion on dropping the “K” applied specifically to VFR flight following requests, not IFR clearances. When ATC types clearances into their system, they do not use four-letter ICAO codes (e.g., KJFK); they enter the three-letter FAA identifier (JFK). However, when issuing verbal IFR reroutes, controllers should explicitly state “KILO” before an airport identifier to avoid confusion.
They agree that omitting the “K” in IFR routings is problematic and should not be assumed. This reinforces the importance of clear, precise communication, especially when a pilot is filing to a fix instead of a specific destination airport.
Listener Feedback: Clarification on Stabilized Approach Criteria (1:02:12 – 1:03:55)
Eric, a corporate pilot, writes in to correct Romeo Hotel on a stabilized approach altitude requirement mentioned in a previous episode.
Instrument Approaches: Aircraft must be stabilized by 1,000 feet AGL.
Visual Approaches: Aircraft must be stabilized by 500 feet AGL.
Romeo Hotel acknowledges the correction, attributing his initial mistake to a misinterpretation of a training video. He thanks Eric for catching the error and appreciates the friendly tone of the correction.
Question of the Week: Multiple IFR Approach Clearances at Non-Towered Airports (1:03:56 – 1:04:51)
The question of the week is introduced:
“Can ATC clear more than one aircraft at a time for an instrument approach at a non-towered airport? Why or why not?”
Listeners are encouraged to submit audio responses explaining their answers, fostering more engagement with the community.
Show Wrap-Up and Future Topics (1:04:52 – 1:06:39)
The episode concludes with a reflection on time constraints—Romeo Hotel and Alpha Golf managed to record the show within a narrow 1-hour and 30-minute window while Alpha Golf was traveling. They celebrate their efficiency and thank listeners for tuning in.
They also remind listeners about ways to submit feedback, including the Opposing Bases website and social media channels. A disclaimer follows, reinforcing that the views expressed are personal opinions and do not represent official FAA or NATCA positions.
Key Takeaways from the Final Segment
CFI Contributions Matter: CFIs play a crucial role in bridging the gap between training and real-world operations, making their feedback highly valuable.
Clear Communication on Airport Identifiers: In IFR operations, controllers should explicitly state “KILO” before an airport identifier to prevent confusion with NAVAIDs.
Stabilized Approach Criteria:
1,000 feet AGL for instrument approaches
500 feet AGL for visual approaches
Encouraging Listener Engagement: The question of the week invites pilots and controllers to share their perspectives, fostering a more interactive discussion.
Efficient ATC-Pilot Coordination: The importance of time management is reinforced—whether in recording a podcast or issuing IFR clearances.
This episode of Opposing Bases delivers another informative and engaging discussion, blending technical aviation insights with real-world stories and listener feedback.
[Romeo Hotel] Hello and welcome to Opposing Bases air traffic talk. Thank you for playing one of our older episodes. We are happy to have you and while you are free to listen to all episodes in any order you want, do not feel like you have to start all the way back at the beginning.
Our recommendation is to start with the current episodes and work your way back so you can join the current conversation and your feedback is more timely. Enjoy the show.
[Alpha Golf] Delta 1652 try departure radar contact climb and maintain one two thousand.
[Romeo Hotel] Air key 901 Whiskey radar contact enter the left base runway five left say altitude. Envoy 3972 descend and maintain 7,000. Mountain 75085 from Brant turn left heading 260 maintain 3,000 till steps on the localizer cleared ILS 23 left approach.
[Alpha Golf] American 792 traffic two o’clock five miles southbound FedEx 1620.
[Romeo Hotel] You are listening to Opposing Bases air traffic talk. We are Romeo Hotel and Alpha Golf and we’re so happy you joined us today. We are both air traffic controllers and we are both rated pilots.
We love all things aviation and we are delivering an aviation podcast where we discuss our interactions with the aviation community and the view from our side of the radar screen. On this show you’ll hear our views, our opinions, and our stories from throughout our careers in aviation. We speak for Romeo Hotel and Alpha Golf.
We do not represent our employer and we should not be used to replace your CFI, your OJTI, the 7110.65, the FARs, your attorney, your doctor, your best friend, or your cat. We are just two aviation enthusiasts with a unique perspective that we want to share. This show is for entertainment purposes only with the hope that you learn something along the way and have a great time listening.
On today’s show we will discuss approach briefings, holding, EFC times, and communicating fuel emergencies. We’ll also have the next installment of the question of the week and of course your feedback which drives the show. Today’s show is produced and directed by Romeo Hotel.
Welcome to Opposing Bases air traffic talk. Welcome. What’s up AJ?
Hey what’s going on?
[Alpha Golf] It’s great. I really like what you’ve done with the intro there. Very good.
[Romeo Hotel] We’ll work on it. It’s a work in progress.
[Alpha Golf] It’s good.
[Romeo Hotel] We have new listeners every week and it’s important to understand what’s going on. We’re going to have to explain it later on in the show so. Right.
Everybody you just witnessed our first intro.
[Speaker 5] Yay.
[Romeo Hotel] How was your week? My week has been hectic. I’m in the middle of it.
The weather is crappy here so we got to spend the last couple days doing ILSs to minimums. A little bit of cat 2 action with near smigs weather. Smigs is the budgetary version of ASDX or ground radar where we have to use little painted dots on the taxiways to tell where an aircraft is.
We won’t get into that today. I did a lot of training. I trained a lot yesterday on local control.
One of our trainees who did really well. We watched several trainees work approaches and it was a busy week from my working point of view. So how about you?
How’s the trip out west?
[Alpha Golf] It’s good. It’s still happening. It’s almost over.
Today is our last, it’s my last night in the hotel. I had a good weekend though. I had a long weekend.
I went back to my folks on the other side of the mountains. The weather was fantastic, minus it’s a little cold and windy, but it was clear and sunny and it was very nice. Right now it’s snowing, which isn’t usual for…
Snowing at your hotel right now? Yes, right now.
[Romeo Hotel] Oh, it’s 70 degrees here. Oh yeah, it got warm since you’ve left. It’s gotten warmer.
Wow.
[Alpha Golf] I can’t say that I missed the low IFR work at work though. I don’t.
[Romeo Hotel] In typical fashion, it was on my first day back after a… Well, I did have two days off this weekend really. I had an overtime mid, so I had two days off.
And like we’ve discussed in previous episodes, day one, you sit down and you get pummeled. And that’s what happened. Right.
That’s always what happens. Yeah. And then you get to train, which has its own challenges.
But the training did really well. It was an awesome day of training. We got over five hours of live training with ILSs and the protected area for the critical or the ILS critical area poses a little bit of a challenge for us when we have release times.
And the trainee did really well. It was a good couple of days. Tell me about the simulator.
[Alpha Golf] We have been practicing our RNAV. I got my folks actually last week when they came to pick me up, they got to stop by the sim and check it out and get about 15 minutes of flight time. Nice.
They enjoyed that. We finished everything.
[Romeo Hotel] Any red screens?
[Alpha Golf] Oh, no. Well, we had the crash override off, but I don’t think they would have crashed. Dad did pretty well on his first go around.
We finished up everything we had to do for the course early today. And we were up flying around the DC area doing approaches up there. And when we finished, we just went sightseeing around in the sim.
I did an approach into the White House lawn. And then my buddy did an approach into RFK stadium. And we set it down about the 30 yard line and left it there for the next group when they came in.
So nice. That was fun. Sweet.
Yeah. So that’s the course is over. I’m now a software 9.2.2 qualified.
[Romeo Hotel] A listener used that term in the feedback and I had no idea what he was talking about. That’s the software version. So this is like Windows 12.8?
Right. Right. All right.
So today we are going to discuss some feedback that drove today’s show from Captain Nick. Captain Nick is a co-host of the Airline Pilot Guy podcast, which we have mentioned probably once every show. They’re awesome.
And we’ll go ahead and play that feedback now.
[Captain Nick] On a slightly different subject, I’d like to reiterate what bus driver said in episode six about runway changes and just how much work they create and how they erode our safety margins, particularly when they’re given at short notice. I mean, he went into it in detail. It’s very similar in my aircraft type.
So FMS reprogramming could have studied the approach, started the go around, take a look at the new terrain that might affect you. You’ve got to do a whole landing distance calculation where you have to work out what your expected turnoff and then brief taxi patterns. Then you have to rebrief the approach.
It’s it’s not just a matter of slipping onto a new runway and going on one runway is just the same as another in our operation. It’s quite a big deal. And when you get unexpected, particularly short notice, runway changes, they can be a pain in the ass.
So I’ve got to agree with bus driver on that. Anyway, neither of those things are really what I what I wanted to talk about. What I wanted to have a quick word with you about and ask you perhaps to explain are holding patterns in the United States and expect further clearance times.
Now, in the operations that we tend to operate long haul, everyone’s very fuel conscious nowadays. We record the average holding times into airfields and give all our crews an idea of when you can expect to hold and how long it’s likely to be. And in our usual approaches, and I have to say the States is very good at this.
The flow is usually excellent. We’re often not holding at all, if ever. I mean, obviously, you sometimes get an alternative like lots of radar vectors, which can consume the fuel, but we can take that into account.
So it’s not it’s quite a rare thing to be put into a hold in the States. However, when it does, and when you’ve got quite limited holding fuel, it can be a big concern for the captain, because now he has got relatively short amount of time to establish whether he is going to be able to have enough fuel to continue his approach after the hold, or whether he really ought to already be thinking about diverting, which for us in an international carrier is a major problem, because the sort of airfields we might be diverting to won’t have customs, they may not be able to service and turn our aircraft very easily. There’s often it’s not just a splash and dash, often it’s much longer than that.
We might be running at a crew duty time if we divert, particularly if it’s a reasonable distance, there are an awful lot of variables that we have to go through our heads. So when we go into a hold, it would be really nice to get accurate, expect further clearance times or expect approach times. Now, the times that I’m given are usually almost without exception, wildly inaccurate.
Now I’m used to going into European airfields where if you put in a hold, and I’m going to use Heathrow as an example since that’s my home base, you’re given an EAT, expect approach time, and it’s usually accurate to within one or two minutes. And with that kind of accuracy, I can look at my fuel, I can calculate what fuel margins I have. And if I decide that it’s just not going to be safe for me to continue, I’m going to already start planning on my diversion and how we’re going to go and what’s going to happen.
Now I’ve been into the States where I get a expect further clearance time, which can be 50 minutes, an hour from the hold entry time. And I’m looking at it going, well, I’ve got 10 minutes of holding fuel here. No way am I ever going to make that.
And yet one turn around the hold, and I’m cleared to continue with no further delays. And I’m scratching my head what on earth was that expect further clearance time. Now I understand there may be a different definition of when you can expect further clearance.
And I understand there may be different problems in the States. So it would help me a great deal if you could perhaps explain why controllers are in a position to give accurate times and what the differences are. That would help me a lot.
So that’s it from me. I hope you won’t think I’m just a whinger. I’m not.
I’m just trying to get to find out how you guys work and think to make my operation more efficient. And I appreciate your time. Really enjoying the show.
And thanks very much.
[Romeo Hotel] All right, Captain Nick, that was awesome feedback. A lot to touch on briefly before we get to the EFCs and the holds. I thought we could take a short opportunity, very quick opportunity to explain a couple of the little things that he mentioned at the beginning.
The runway changes are creating a ton of work. We have had multiple pilots respond to that. And pilots that I know have reached out and called me and said, yes, that is a major workload and they appreciated us addressing it on the show.
Ironically, and you haven’t done this training yet, it just came out. We just got new training at work that has really detailed videos showing what happens when a crew gets a runway change or an arrival change. Both while the arrival on the sequence from center down to the terminal environment, also runway change if they’re taxiing out and the ground controller changed their runway, all the considerations in it.
It shows what they’re doing, what they’re doing with the computer, how they’re briefing one another. It’s eye-opening. I thought it was really good training, but relevant for today’s conversation as well.
And you just got out of the sim. If you were below 5,000, well, you’re always probably below 5,000 feet. Let’s say you’re within 15 miles of the airport and you get a runway change.
How does that impact your workload in the helicopter IMC? We’ll assume low weather.
[Alpha Golf] We’ve got to start, well, one, we’re still using the paper. So we’ve got to go find the approach that we’re going to do, make sure we’re legal to do it with the equipment that we have, and then start programming it into the flight plan, updating the flight plan. And depending on how much of a change it is, that could be pretty extensive.
Sometimes depending on what the approach is and if it’s part of the DoD publications, it’s already in there and we can just basically drag and drop it into the flight plan. But sometimes if it’s not, now you’ve got to build the whole thing basically by hand. And it’s a ton of work for the non-flying guy to do.
There’s a ton of work. And then of course you’ve got to brief. Once you get it all set up, you’ve got to brief the approach and verify that everything’s correct that you have in there and you’re both looking at it.
So yeah, I mean, even for us in a non-commercial environment, it’s busy.
[Romeo Hotel] And a little bit slower. It’s still busy.
[Alpha Golf] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah.
Yeah. And we’re only moving across the ground at 130, 140.
[Romeo Hotel] All right. We just got into an aircraft together. AG and I are going to simulate an approach briefing going into an airport that you just utilized in your simulations out in Seattle.
And for the simulation here, AG will be the flying pilot. RH is the non-flying pilot. And you are the more current pilot.
You go ahead and brief us. You’re the flying pilot. Go ahead and do everything.
Anybody who wants to follow along, we are using the ILS approach to runway one at Ronald Reagan, Washington National, DCA. If you want to follow along and listen to how a crew that is flying into an airport that they may have never been to briefs an approach. Go ahead.
[Alpha Golf] All right. So without, I don’t have my checklist in my hand, but this is basically how it would go. All right.
RH, we’re going to do the ILS or localizer DME runway one to Washington National DCA airport. I’ve got, I’m on page Alpha Lima 443. And again, that’s the FAA publication, not Jefferson.
[Romeo Hotel] Our pages match. Continue. Okay.
All right.
[Alpha Golf] Localizer frequency is 109.9. Tuned and identified. Okay. Approach course 006.
Set. We don’t brief typically the landing distances and everything, but touchdown zone elevation 14 feet, airport elevation 15 feet. Roger.
Approach lighting probably will not be on for the daytime. Missed approach is climb to 420, then a climbing left turn to 2100 on the DCA VOR 325 radio to Gulf Tango November NDB 5.9 DME and hold. Tower frequency 119.1 or in our case. Tuned and standby. Roger. 257.6. We would brief that as well in the helicopter. Let’s see. Intercept altitude initially 2500 and then established inbound on the localizer descending to 1600, which would be the approximate intercept altitude at the final approach fix. And decision height 214 feet, which is 200 AGL.
[Romeo Hotel] Well, while you were flying here, I did get the weather. It is 200 foot ceilings and visibility three miles. So the approach lights will be on.
Okay. If we have them in sight, we can go to instead of 214, we can continue to 114, 100 feet above touchdown zone. Okay.
All right. I don’t have any questions. Do you have anything to add?
Anything about the restricted areas?
[Alpha Golf] Yes. So prohibited area 5. Let’s see.
What is it?
[Romeo Hotel] No. 595. Okay.
Yeah.
[Alpha Golf] P56 is straight off runway heading. So that’s basically the immediate left turn. It’s climbed to 420 feet.
Then a climbing left turn to 2100 to avoid the prohibited areas.
[Romeo Hotel] We don’t want to fly into that. No. We would be waking up important people.
Yes. It’s very bad.
[Alpha Golf] Must turn left. Got it. Noted.
Hold at the NDB, which is interesting. Haven’t done that one in quite a while.
[Romeo Hotel] I have that set in the NDB. And in the unusual event of a published mist and non-vectors from the tower, we will plan on holding at the NDB. Roger.
Noted. I have no further questions. No questions.
I have the flight controls. So that took a couple minutes. AG and I, that is not unusual.
The timing that took place there, had we, both of us, maybe have only been to the airport a few times or never been to the airport. That’s how a crew familiarizes themselves with the field. Now imagine doing that 10 or 15 miles out after you’ve already done it once for another runway.
Everything that we just said has to be done again. It can be done quickly, but there are certain aspects of it that should not be overlooked. For example, tuning the new localizer, briefing the new mist approach, setting the proper course guidance in if you do go mist, briefing those restricted areas.
If we changed runways and it was a different climb out, for example, if they put us on in this airport, this wouldn’t be the case, but a perpendicular runway that would change the terrain and the turn characteristics of the mist approach and would also have to be briefed. None of what we said is unimportant. Everything is important and a last minute change would put a crew in a situation where they’d have to do that again.
So that was our little mock approach briefing. Thank you, AG. Thank you.
I appreciate it. All right. So Captain Nick brought up a bigger topic, holding times or holding and EFC times.
Brief summary of what that means for those that may not understand what an EFC time is and what a hold is. Aircraft cannot stop en route. They must continue flying.
And in order to do that, when they can no longer progress towards their destination, they may be given holds. And holds are, for lack of a simpler term, oval racetracks in the sky. And they have a direction that you would be flying and you would basically be going in circles, waiting until the controllers can continue to clear to your airport.
And that EFC stands for expect further clearance. What time can we expect a further clearance, i.e. when can we go to the airport that we set out to land at? Thank you for the compliment.
The United States probably does a significantly better job than, well, maybe not every country, but I consider it a compliment that we do a great job planning on the ground and avoiding holds. They’re not ideal. They cost money and time.
Two things that no one wants to waste. Some people waste it. Yes.
Side comment. Sorry. So while the flow control is usually excellent, and flow control really boils down to controlling aircraft time-wise on the ground before they depart.
So preventing the issue of having too many airplanes airborne going to a destination that they can’t possibly all arrive to in the set amount of time, they are metered on the ground. We’ll get into that a little bit briefly. So when it does happen, the immediate concern is how long is it going to be?
And in Captain Nick’s case, he’s flying a heavy aircraft from Europe. He may be been flying for anywhere from six to eight, maybe 10 or 12 hours in the air. And despite its amazing features, they can’t fly forever.
So their concern is fuel. And I will quote him. It will be really nice to get accurate EFC times, but they’re usually without exception, wildly inaccurate.
AG, why don’t you go over some of the reasons that we may go into holding a specific airport. It doesn’t have to be a large Metroplex airport. In Captain Nick’s case, it would be.
He’s not landing at triad tower type of fields. He’s landing at bigger airports where it may be more common. But why don’t you go ahead and talk about some reasons on why we would have an unplanned or unexpected hold?
Okay.
[Alpha Golf] So several scenarios. One, and typically, and I could be wrong about this, but I’d say the most common would be weather. And weather forecasting is getting better and better, but there’s always unexpected changes or it gets worse than they imagined, which is really hard to predict what exactly the weather is going to do.
So that’s just one of those random variables. Runway changes and not to the pilot, but the whole airport turns around. So if an airport is oriented East-West and they’re landing to the West, and maybe it’s been sort of a crosswind all day that starts to shift around just a few degrees to one side, they may consider turning the airport around and landing East.
[Romeo Hotel] Atlanta would be a good example of that. East-West configuration, six runways, several arrival gates, four to seven to eight. Someone will call me out on that, but yes, right.
[Alpha Golf] So when that happens and the flow is going one way and all the planes are being routed to land to the West, and now you’re landing to the East, it just creates a huge mess. Obviously, I have no experience in dealing with a runway change at a large Metroplex airport like that, but I can’t imagine that it’s particularly easy. And I’m sure they’re trying to time those so that it’s done during low arrival rates.
[Romeo Hotel] And typically, I think in a normal everyday scenario, those may be planned out several hours in advance to hold the airplanes that are going to be on the newer runway on the ground, maybe a little bit longer, or space them out in route with speed and crossing time restrictions that are commonly used. But correct, usually at the large airports, it’s planned ahead a little bit further.
[Alpha Golf] Okay. So maybe the runway configuration doesn’t change, but the approach changes. So the weather deteriorates, and now instead of using visual approaches, which have high arrival rate, you change to ILSs, and this requires slower arrival rates.
It requires additional people and positions to be opened in the radar room. And then, of course, an emergency, aircraft is disabled on the runway. That’s an unknown delay.
It’s just the controllers have they have no way to determine or estimate the time it’s going to take to get them off the runway.
[Romeo Hotel] Right. So I reached out to a few center controllers to get a basic idea of what happens. Why that first initial knee-jerk EFC time reaction?
Where did you pull that from? Did someone dictate it to you? Was it in a computer program?
And I’m not trying to make it sound like a guess. It’s not a guess. The general feedback was that depending on the situation, and again, they don’t know when that situation may end or resolve itself, they are using a very conservative time.
And in your example that you used in your feedback, 50 minutes to an hour, and you end up only doing one lap, which for those of you who don’t know, 10-mile legs is not uncommon. If you’re slowed down to 250 knots or less, that’s only a few minutes per lap and hold. So Captain Nick experiences an EFC time of an hour away.
He arrives. He barely does one loop, and they’re clearing him back to the airport. And my opinion is that’s a better alternative than them promising you or giving you the illusion that it would be a much shorter time and not allowing you the time to come up with the fuel numbers that you must come up with.
So they aren’t guessing, but since they don’t know when those issues are going to resolve themselves, for example, at one of the large Metroplex airports, I won’t name them, that this controller worked at, they said if their normal arrival rate for the corner, the arrival sector that they’re feeding the Metroplex airport on is 10 miles in trail, meaning 10 miles between each of the arrivals that are going into their arrival gate, their corner, for example’s sake.
It may go from 10 to 20 miles in trail. Well, everybody’s been spaced to get to where you are 10 miles apart so that you can continue to feed them 10 miles apart, and now you have to double the space between them. So they’re going to hold.
Well, they’re going to start with that first guy. He’s got to build the room now, and as they go back in the line, the EFC times may be less exaggerated, but that first one, one, I have to get 10 more miles out of this, so I’m going to put you in a hold. Two, I don’t know when, it may be 10 miles in trail, but I may have a 30-minute delay before I can start giving them to you at 20 miles in trail.
There may be a time frame in there that I have to wait. You can’t stop. So here’s an EFC time that seems wildly guessed and largely is uncalculated.
The controller at the scope that’s talking to you doesn’t necessarily use all of the data points that a traffic management unit would have available to them, so they’re doing their best to stop the issue from getting worse, and the receiver on the pilot side is hearing a time that, in your words, is wildly inaccurate. It’s not meant to be that way. It’s a very conservative guess.
That’s the general feedback that I got. Okay.
[Alpha Golf] Yeah, that makes sense to me, and yeah, I would be cautious about, you know, without knowing for sure, about giving someone a short time that they’re now relying on and saying, oh yeah, we’re going to be good on fuel. And they’re not, you know.
[Romeo Hotel] So what happened? Oh, go ahead. I’m sorry.
Yeah, if it ends up being longer. So if we got an EFC time of an hour away, the first thing we would do is slow down and get their permission to slow down. Most of the time they said, okay, speed your discretion.
They’re, by the book, supposed to give us at least five minutes before the hold time. We can start slowing down as we approach, because we know we’re not going anywhere, so why go fast? Going fast out calculates to more, usually more gas, and we don’t want to burn it.
Depending on what that initial EFC time was, we may wait a couple minutes, but likely we’re going to be on the radio with the dispatcher, who has a responsibility to be available on the radio, and we discuss the scenario. What’s happening? Why are we being held?
They may know more than we know, because we just got told we’re holding. They may know something about the weather. They may know it’s for a runway change.
They may know that it was an emergency, and depending on the nature of the emergency, they don’t expect delays to be more than a few minutes, and we should be able to continue. Great. If not, they’re going to start digging into the numbers.
They typically asked us right away, what’s our fuel situation? What do we have on board right now? What was the EFC time?
And there’s a dispatcher at a computer that has information available, like what airports are close by that our aircraft can land at, where we can get fuel, and essentially wait out our time on the ground safely, and wait to go to our original destination. So while they’re doing that, they’re also calculating how much fuel we’ll need, and I’m reluctant to use the word that we… I don’t know if it’s an official term.
We use the term bingo fuel. Bingo fuel was used to describe the number, the fuel in pounds remaining before we had to exit the hold and continue to the divert airport that the captain and the dispatcher discussed in their radio talk. So we would communicate that information to air traffic as soon as possible.
All right. We have 45 minutes of fuel before we have to divert, and if we divert, we’re going to try to go to… I’ll just name the last airport I remember diverting to, Allentown, Pennsylvania.
It was on our way to JFK, which may be Captain Nick’s example. So we’re sharing information. We’ve got a plan, and we know we can do circles for 45 minutes before we have to go somewhere else, because we don’t have enough gas to go try and approach at JFK after more holding.
We have to leave. You want to talk a little bit about the holding them on the ground, like we do pretty much every day with every departure out of our airport that’s going to a Metroplex Northeastern Airport.
[Alpha Golf] Okay. So yeah, typically, anybody that’s departing to the big places, we have to call. You know, they give us an indication of when they’re going to be ready.
They call before they push back and say, we’re going to be ready in 30 minutes. Let’s just say it’s Delta 1275. So as soon as I know that, I call the traffic management unit from the position right there in my headset, and they answer the phone, or they answer the line, and they say, you know, whoever they’re representing, Atlanta.
I say, this is Triad Tower. I have Delta 1275 Triad to Atlanta ready in 30 minutes. They say he’s released in 35 minutes, void in 38 minutes, just as an example.
It’s typically a three-minute window.
[Romeo Hotel] Roger.
[Alpha Golf] And then it’s our job in the tower to make sure that Delta 1275 gets out to the runway and takes off in that window. It’s the same for the large Metroplex airport that’s close to us. And it’s actually, when I first started working there, I was quite amazed at how the process worked.
And they would give us a time, a release time for that jet. And you could see all day the string of aircraft arriving into this airport, flying over our airspace. And then there would be a gap.
You know, typically they’re 10 and trail, and then you’d see a gap, maybe 15 or 20 miles. And the time would be approaching to clear that aircraft for takeoff. And as it took off, they’re basically taking off and flying up into that gap and fitting into the line, into the string, going into that bigger airport.
[Romeo Hotel] It’s really cool to watch. I mean, you see the plan make sense when you launch them and you could see the hole that the center control, we ship them out of the highest altitude we can climb them to a triad is 12,000. And for the example of the airport near Concord, that is very close.
You can see that gap. I mean, it’s right there. Whereas the Northeastern airports that are an hour away, you know, four or 500 miles away, we can’t see that hole when they take off.
They’re in front of it and it’s coming to them as they speed up, if that makes sense. But when AG made that phone call, a traffic management controller is utilizing a planning tool, which I will not succeed in simplifying. It basically shows them graphically and using times where that hole is for that aircraft.
Where can we fit this? There’s no surprise on fitting that aircraft into an arrival sequence. They are looking out, they see it.
And if it’s for the airports to the Northeast, we typically call about 12 to 15 minutes before they take off, hoping that that’s when they can get a time. And they’re looking 12 to 15, maybe longer, further out along a jet route and finding a hole for them. They know they’re coming.
They’re basically reserving a spot in the line to the Northeast. It’s pretty cool how it works. And that precludes them from…
Imagine another scenario. We don’t call. We just fling them all up there and say, have fun on your way up to the New York City area.
Good luck. Well, there’s no way that’s going to work. You can’t just magically fit airplanes from every airport on the East Coast into this stream.
There has to be planning. And that goes back to what Captain Nick said. It is unusual to hold.
There’s a lot of planning done to avoid that. And when it does happen, it’s not chaotic, but it’s not normal. And it yields a little more of wiggle room in those times.
I think that’s a pretty good explanation. Captain Nick and I went back and forth a little bit on email about this. And you said something that will resonate with me.
You know what the book may say, but we wanted our opinion on it. And I think that’s why some of the listeners are tuned in. They want to hear our opinion on certain things.
And it’s not a perfect science. I think every controller involved in doing it is doing their best job. And when faced with, in your situation, an impossible hold time, you don’t have the feel for it.
My takeaway from all of this would be to communicate that as soon as possible, so that they know you need a much more accurate answer. And this is how much time you have to give it. The sooner you do that, I felt like it was a negotiating tool.
And I don’t know if it actually helped us. But if we knew we didn’t have the gas for it, and we were fueled for VFR conditions at our arrival airport, and our contingency fuel was low because we were really heavy with bags and a full load of people in a longer flight, and maybe we didn’t carry as much contingency fuel, which was common going into the Northeast, we would verbalize that immediately. Tell them.
Tell the controller. All right. Great.
We copy the old instructions. We have 10 minutes, and we got to start thinking about going somewhere else. Now, that may not push us to the front of the line, but we’ve started the communication chain immediately.
There’s no illusion that I can hold up here for an hour. All right. Do with that information what you may, but I’m telling you as soon as possible.
So communicate, communicate, communicate.
[Alpha Golf] I have been in a couple scenarios, stateside and deployed, of minimum fuel.
[Romeo Hotel] Oh, let’s go to that. What’s minimum fuel?
[Alpha Golf] Oh, minimum fuel. Next page, go. Indicates that an aircraft’s fuel supply has reached a state where, upon reaching the destination, it can accept little or no delay.
This is not an emergency situation, but merely indicates an emergency situation is possible should any undue delay occur.
[Romeo Hotel] And you’ve done it when? When did you use it?
[Alpha Golf] The worst time was in Iraq. We had a sling load. We were going to haul about 150 miles.
It was a giant box, mostly empty.
[Romeo Hotel] Swinging in the dark underneath your giant helicopter?
[Alpha Golf] Right. Typical speed for something like that was to be flown at 90 to 100 knots maybe. That was probably the most comfortable.
We took off, we got in route. We had a serious unforecasted headwind that we did not notice until we were sort of in, at the point of no return, where we started crunching fuel numbers and realized, unless we increase our speed drastically, we are going to run out of fuel somewhere in the desert, somewhere unkind to us.
[Romeo Hotel] And how did that resolve itself? How did you resolve that as the PIC?
[Alpha Golf] We, first I yelled at the co-pilot, because it must be his fault. And then two, we went very fast. And if, there’s probably not, if you’ve ever flown a sling load, we did, we did land, but not, we landed at our airport, but we increased speed drastically.
And something that’s supposed to be flown at 90 knots that you’re now flying at 130, and you’re about 10 degrees nose low, and you’ve about max power applied. You’re trying to get to your max range airspeed as close as you can. And we were probably 15 miles, 20 miles from the airport, both fuel level low lights on.
It was very, very uncomfortable. And I ended up having to declare an emergency, because there was some confusion with the tower about where the sling load was going to be dropped off. And we basically ended up saying, look, this is where we’re putting it.
We’ll figure it out later, but I’m setting it down here. And then we’re going straight to refuel. Of course, it’s dark.
It was hard to find refuel. There was a flight of Apaches that was in the refuel area that was listening to all this on the radio. And ended up flashing all their lights on the ground to get us into the…
We were unfamiliar with the airport.
[Romeo Hotel] It was an interesting night. That sounds much worse than mine. We had a fuel situation that was a result of an equipment failure en route that required us to descend to a lower altitude.
And we had unforecasted lack of tailwinds. And heading into New York, we did declare minimum fuel going into JFK. That got quite the response from the JFK or New York approach controllers.
They asked very direct questions. The first one was, say again, I said, we are declaring minimum fuel. Now, keep in mind, the awkwardness of this is that we were above New York City at 13,000 feet.
We could see Newark, JFK, and LaGuardia clearly. It was VFR. You could see Boston.
It was awesome. And we were declaring minimum fuel. But to set up for an approach I’ve discussed before, a left base after you fly down to basically Atlantic City, you go back to the north and fly over the bay and enter left base for runway 31 left.
It’s awesome. But we didn’t have time or gas to go 40 or 50 miles on a downwind before we came back up. So, we declared minimum fuel.
He said, say again. I said it again. And I was prepared to get yelled at.
And he didn’t yell at me. He said, save fuel on board in time until starvation. Wow.
Well, that yielded a very awkward look on the captain’s face. And he said, tell him 52 minutes. I don’t know how he calculated that.
It was a guess. Yeah. It was between 45 and an hour based on us leveling off at a lower altitude.
And the controller reacted in alarm. He knew we could not make it on the normal setup. And he said, I’m declaring an emergency for you.
Descend and maintain 4,000. Turn left heading 130. We were put on the downwind from there immediately.
And you could hear him slowing down a string of aircraft. And essentially, we became number one. They treated it immediately as an emergency.
[Speaker 5] Wow.
[Romeo Hotel] They did not mess around. And thank you for that. I landed.
And we did a little bit of paperwork. And we made it to our next flight. And we didn’t get in trouble for it.
I think there’s a thought that maybe you’ll get in trouble if you say those words. We did what we were supposed to do. We had an issue.
It caused us to burn more fuel than we had forecasted. And we told them. And we got on the ground very quickly.
[Alpha Golf] That’s good.
[Romeo Hotel] I got in trouble. Yeah. I wasn’t flinging a load around with who knows what on it in a hostile territory.
Yeah.
[Alpha Golf] We got in trouble. I got chewed out the next day for dropping that sling load in the middle of the airfield. Apparently, that was not appreciated.
[Romeo Hotel] But you’re here. But I’m here. Everybody’s safe.
Yeah. So good job. All right.
Captain Nick, thank you. You said you wanted to touch on it briefly. We, of course, took it out for a few more minutes than briefly.
But if we missed anything, and you want to hear more of our opinion on it, we’d be happy to discuss it more. But I think we have officially discussed that to death. You want to start off with some feedback?
Feedback.
[Alpha Golf] All right. First one. Joe, the Airbus guy.
Joe says, great podcast. Just a couple of points after listening to Episodes 2, 3, and 5. I loved Episode 2, Automation.
Flight management systems and iPads and screens have increased the situational awareness in the cockpit, decreased the weight of my luggage. I’ve, in fact, dumped my 35-pound flight bag and now carry a 5-pound man purse.
[Romeo Hotel] Oh, that’s funny.
[Alpha Golf] In the Airbus, the top row of the PFD. Not familiar with PFD. Do you know what that is?
Primary flight display. Okay. Is the flight mode enunciator or FMA.
It will tell you what the aircraft is programmed to currently do or what it is armed to do next. If you arm the approach, check the FMA. You should see a blue localizer and glide slope symbol, LOC and GS.
Now you know the aircraft will intercept with a few exceptions. Religious reading of the FMA goes a long way towards preventing surprises. I agree with that.
I see what the FMA is now. We call it a different thing, but I got it.
[Romeo Hotel] Are you suggesting that there’s a whole new list of acronyms on another aircraft? Continue.
[Alpha Golf] The Airbus FMS allows the crew to program two arrivals and two approaches. Oh, that’s nice. We don’t have that either.
Oh, nice. Yeah, nice. This allows you to verify the database in the aircraft for these two stars and SIDS ahead of time against the most recent publications on the iPad.
Last minute changes when you can’t take the time to verify constraints is when mistakes can happen, so this is a helpful feature. I enjoyed the TA discussion in episode five also. Traffic alert.
Yeah, traffic alert. Thank you. Traffic.
Just had one the other day. Most times, you can see them coming and by reducing vertical speed, decrease the rate of approach vertically and prevent TAs altogether. So just a side note, that’s what you were talking about before.
I think you’re going to get 500 feet separation from a VFR aircraft, but the computer sees your descent rate and your path and says, this isn’t going to work. So they’re saying, slow that descent rate down and you’re basically tricking the computer into not seeing it as a collision. I like it.
[Romeo Hotel] I like that. Yeah, it’s a very good technique. Great job.
[Alpha Golf] The only watch out associated with selecting vertical speed mode is the aircraft is no longer in a managed climb or descent, which means if you still have the top or bottom altitude for the star or SIDS selected, which is likely, you may miss an altitude constraint by trying to avoid an RA. That is another great point. Yeah.
[Romeo Hotel] Yeah, you have taken your ATC instruction and basically amended it, but with good intent, you just have to continue to monitor the situation to make sure you’re hitting points.
[Alpha Golf] All right. Again, great podcast from a US-based Airbus 320 captain. Cool.
Who’s up next?
[Speaker 4] Hello, RH and AG. This is David Abbey. I’m calling from Gotham City and just basically want to leave some feedback about your podcast.
Don’t have a specific question right now, but I heard about your podcast from the Airline Pilot Guy show, as I understand many of your listeners learn from that way. And so far, I want to say fantastic podcast on your part. I’ve been through all five episodes, learned a lot.
And my favorite subject, aviation related, is air traffic control. So I’m so glad that you’ve decided to put a podcast out and giving a very balanced point of view and giving the view from your side of the radar screen and the control tower. And also, I appreciate the fact that you’re not sensationalistic.
You always make it clear that these are your opinions, that it’s not the way it has to be. It’s just the way you guys view certain issues. And of course, you don’t always agree on things.
And I also like that you put in the real world situation as it relates to where you guys work in the triad area. So we can go to maps online or airport charts and kind of get an idea of the airspace or what you’re dealing with. So just want to say thanks again.
I’ll certainly leave some more feedback and questions if I think of any and keep up the great work. Looking forward to many more podcasts to come. Take care.
[Romeo Hotel] All right. Thank you, DA. Your new initials and your new name for the show will be DA, if you don’t mind.
We’ll continue with that theme. You may have said your name in there, but I’ll refer to you as DA for my notes, if that works. So you got a little bit of written feedback with that.
Hello, RH and AG. Feel free to play this feedback on a future episode. Well, we did.
I tried Speakpipe, but I had some issues. Well, thank you for trying. I appreciate that.
We look forward to audio feedback like that.
[Alpha Golf] Maybe you’re the only one, DA.
[Romeo Hotel] Yeah. All you got to do is go to our website, OpposingBases.com, and it’s a little button that pops up. Hit it.
Start talking. Hit send. It’s not very hard.
I’m an avid listener of APG. I think 45 minutes is a rational length, although we will be over that likely again. Thanks for explaining situations clearly.
I like the idea of pulling something from a pilot controller glossary. But so far, it seems like you guys have plenty to talk about. And he suggested we interview the creator of LiveATC.net.
LiveATC.net. His name is Dave Pascoe, if you’re listening. Let’s talk.
Maybe we can do an interview, and you can tell me how you have the ability to record hundreds of frequencies throughout the United States. I would love to know how that works. How you’ve recruited an army of recorders.
Right. So, thank you, DA. We will look forward to your next feedback.
We do have some at the end of today’s show. Go ahead. All right.
Get the next one.
[Alpha Golf] This one’s yours. This is from Jason. Oh, I see why.
I’m a friend and colleague of both Jamie and Luke who have written into the show, a fellow CH-47 pilot, and now a GA pilot. So, I think the tally is up to three Chinook pilots that are listening to the show.
[Romeo Hotel] I think that’s about 62% of the population of… Go ahead.
[Alpha Golf] All right. Jason says…
[Romeo Hotel] I’m joking.
[Alpha Golf] I have learned something in every one of your podcasts so far, so keep up the good work. This is exactly the medium that we need to communicate and share knowledge across both ends of the mic and make the flight environment safer for everyone. I have a comment and a question.
My comment is in regards to the episode on rerouting and preferred routing. On ForeFlight, if you build an intended route in the flight plan block, on the right-hand side, there is a tab that says Routes. If you click on that tab, it will show you suggestions based on recently approved routing by ATC.
Let’s see. For my question, if I file and activate a VFR flight plan via Flight Service, does that information get passed along to ATC? Okay.
So, let’s tackle that first. So, I didn’t realize that that function was in ForeFlight. I’m not super familiar with ForeFlight.
[Romeo Hotel] That’s good. I mean, he’s saying it’s live, I think, that that is somehow connecting to the internet. It’s probably on a iPad or iPhone that he’s utilizing it on, and it’s giving him up-to-date what the last crew that went on that flight was cleared.
That’s awesome information. Now, I have done my own discussing with people who use it, and reroutes for airspace might not be in there, but if it was put into a clearance from the ground on the departure airport, I believe that’s how that system is getting its information. The amendments in route may not be reflected, but the ones on the ground at the departure point may be, which is a great, great heads up.
[Alpha Golf] Okay. So, what if you did this? This just came into my head.
What if you took an airport that’s farther along your route and told ForeFlight that you were departing from there, so the controllers farther along the route may be familiar, or closer to your destination may be familiar with how you have to be routed around certain airspace, and planes departing from that airport may be getting that routing. That’s good. So, I don’t know.
Something to try, maybe.
[Speaker 5] Yeah.
[Romeo Hotel] And you’re planning at home before you get into a plane that’s running. Right. But, yeah.
That’s a good idea.
[Alpha Golf] So, okay. So, the question is, if I file and activate a VFR flight plan via Flight Service, does that information get passed along to ATC? No, it does not.
The only thing that gets passed along if you’re doing flight following is whatever you tell the controller.
[Romeo Hotel] I have an interesting point about that that I just learned this week. Okay. Go ahead.
Our airport at Triad may be unique. There are controllers in our building that have worked in facilities that pilots that have filed VFR flight plans, they haven’t been activated, but they’ve been filed through Flight Service, will generate a strip and a flight plan in the tower that will prepare the controller in the tower to read you a VFR code and departure instructions. It’s printed.
And ours does not do that at Triad. We do not have that set up. The first time we know about you is when you call from the ramp, telling us you want a taxi for a VFR departure to Florida, for example.
But we may be unique. I know there are airports that do get that flight plan. Now, when you open it, this is the detail of your question, when you open it, like we discussed in a previous episode, we do not know when you opened your flight plan.
We don’t know anything about the details. We only know what AG said, what you told us. That’s it.
Okay. Make sense? Yeah.
[Alpha Golf] That would be nice. Go ahead. Jason goes on to say, lastly, AG, hope you enjoyed your 9.2.2 training. I found it more efficient in building and executing a flight plan in the awesome CH-47 hookers at the end there. Hookers. That’s a common.
[Romeo Hotel] I thought you guys were freight trains.
[Alpha Golf] We are freight train. The hookers are the folks out here in Washington.
[Romeo Hotel] All right. CFI Mike responded to episode seven, practice approaches. Thank you for answering my feedback.
It was extremely valuable. I am definitely going to keep the vector to a long final in my quote unquote bag of CFI tricks for appropriate situations. Stand by for the next question in the near future.
Thank you, CFI Mike. CFI Mike could have gone back and forth a few times. He’s had good feedback and we always look forward to it.
You are instructing actively in the NAS, and you have countless stories you can share with us. So thank you. Do you mind if I tackle this one real quick?
I don’t.
[Alpha Golf] I was just going to say you always give me the long ones.
[Romeo Hotel] I’m going to do the long one. Okay, good. All right.
All right. This is from a listener named Ryan. Good morning.
Thank you for putting out a great show with an aviation perspective. I do not hear as often. I have an issue regarding the dropping of the K when referring to airports, which we discussed in another show and the confusion this causes me.
Sometimes when receiving some rerouting, I am given direct to a three letter identifier. It becomes confusing when there is an airport kilo x-ray, x-ray, x-ray, as an example, and a NAV aid with x-ray, x-ray, x-ray. Depending on how close to the airport the NAV aid is, the resulting heading can be anywhere from insignificant to noticeably different.
In some cases, the NAV aid is even across the country, which is easy to rule out. But in the case where the NAV aid is close, but not close enough to be insignificant, I do not like the confusion this can cause, resulting in extra radio comms to clear up the issue. Some of this is perhaps an added issue for the type of flying I do and that I am not always filing to a destination airport.
I at times need to file to a fix or NAV aid to get IFR handling near to where I need to operate and then switch to VFR if conditions permit my operations to continue. So, while others may be conditioned to assume and drop the K at the beginning, it is not an assumption I am conditioned to making. I guess my concern is that dropping the K, assuming it was there but left unsaid, and then perhaps flying somewhat incorrect heading may leave me either not in compliance with my ATC clearance or even potentially on a path that alters the traffic separation the ATC intended for me.
While in most cases one would assume that it would be cleared up with additional radio query clarification, I have experienced this before in an area of busy comms that also appear to be on the edge of a center and approach reception areas and radar coverage areas. That area has congested radios with spotty reception. I have been given a clearance, read it back, and then spent 20 minutes alternating between trying to break in between other aircraft calls and re-establishing comms, even getting TCAS alerts and never being able to resolve the issue with ATC.
I was generally under the impression that IFR flying is meant for as strict and precise compliance as you could with ATC instructions and the Kilo conflict seems to bring some imprecise instructions to a precise environment. Thank you. All right, let’s go back and clarify, and I’m pretty sure we said this.
The K we were referring to when a VFR pilot calls for flight following. We did not discuss Kilo and the omission of Kilo in reference to IFR and routing instructions. So we are typing on a keyboard and we’re relying on you to give us the information, hopefully quick, so we can type it before we or get interrupted.
And the K is not welcome in our keyboard. We can’t do four letters for the destination airport. Not to be confused with routing that may take you over an airport that would require us issuing that K, if that makes sense.
[Alpha Golf] Yeah, you’re right. That was the context in which we mentioned it previously, I think was for VFR. But I do understand the confusion that can create IFR.
[Romeo Hotel] Right. And I can’t think of a recent example, but I know there are several that have, well, Wilmington’s one. We send aircraft to Wilmington all the time and they actually file ILM and then KILM, but they’re close together.
Right. I think it’s on the field.
[Alpha Golf] Right. Yeah. I know that typically if I’m issuing a reroute to an IFR, I can’t think of any airports that I would use to do the reroute.
An airport would not be a part of the flight plan.
[Romeo Hotel] I have seen that. I can actually think of one recently. I don’t remember where the pilot was going, but I remember they filed over a field and I like it when there’s extra fixes.
I feel like they’ve done a little more planning and they want to fly over a certain point. I’m certainly not going to argue with them as long as it can meet the LOA restrictions. And I issued it.
I made sure I said it. I issued the KILO. So, Ryan, you’re correct.
You should not that in IFR and it should not be confused with our request to omit it in giving us the IFR correction, the VFR information that you want us to type into our awesome keyboard. Yeah. Have we ever talked about the keyboard before?
I think we have.
[Alpha Golf] I think we’ve touched on it a couple of times. Probably every episode. All right.
Go ahead. Next. All right.
I’ve got a short one from Eric the Corporate Pilot. Just got caught up. Great stuff.
Especially the closeout from Zippy. Eric. PS.
RH. You did have your stabilized approach altitudes reversed. It’s 1000 AGL for an instrument approach and 500 for visual.
[Romeo Hotel] There was a little emoticon of a smiling little yellow face and I didn’t take offense to that. I’m glad you corrected me. Thank you.
I knew I was going to mess him up. And what’s funny is I think I reversed him because of something I saw in that video that I just at the beginning of the show talked about that showing a crew doing a briefing for runway change. And they were in a simulator.
Obviously, it wasn’t filmed in a real airplane, but the pilot verbalized 1000 feet and it was visual conditions and I got all screwed up in my head. So just good. Good point.
1000 feet AGL for an instrument approach, which makes sense. And 500 feet AGL for visual. You have a little more time to get stable.
Thank you for pointing that out, Eric. I appreciate it. All right.
We are not going to read this entire last question. We are going to talk about it on the next show when we get feedback for the question of the week. Question of the week.
[Alpha Golf] The question of the week. Oh, can you clear more than one aircraft at a time for an instrument approach at a non towered airport?
[Romeo Hotel] But can the controller clear two aircraft at once for an approach an instrument approach at a non towered airport? Please explain your answer. Using audio feedback would be great.
You can do that. We’ll give you a shot at this. Use the audio feedback.
Yeah. All right. Hey, that’s all the feedback I have.
If we didn’t touch on your feedback, it’s because we did not have time to show or we didn’t have time to prepare for it. We will get to it on an upcoming episode. AG is traveling back to this this coast.
[Alpha Golf] Yes.
[Romeo Hotel] Tomorrow. And we hit our very small window. We had a one hour and 30 minute window to record the show this week.
We hit it. I’m celebrating over here. It’s recorded.
It’s it’s in the digital world. Thank you for making this happen. Thank you.
So in traditional fashion, we will sign off for this week and I’m going to start incorporating my initials. Thank you for joining us. Romeo Hotel.
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